South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

 
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 Post subject: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
The elephant in the room these days in 40k is how to handle all the book, dataslates, and formations when it comes to playing in large events (tournament or narrative doesn't matter)

Since i'm jointly running CavCon (w/ Zane), and later running Conquest, i'm asking here what people would like to see from those events.

Privately, a few locals have agreed w/ my appropriating of the US approach: limiting armies to coming from a total of 2 books. it does penalise imperial armies, whose fluff encourages a larger number of allying units from various forces into a single fighting entity.

there's been some discussion of instead limiting it to a pts value (ie: primary FOC must use at least 1250 of a 1750 list) but getting those values "right" and no neutering things needlessly would be very challenging.

So, as i like to do, i'm turning to you, the community of South Island 40k players, and asking what you'd like to see. right now, the only thing i'm not sold on (like really, not at all) is ranged D weapons. Everything i've read points to them being entirely lacking in fun, since the games are too small to cope with removing handfuls of models every turn like you do in Apocalypse.

Also, the changes and clarifications to the rules i'm planning to make (so far) are:

- limiting the Baron to joining hellions (this stops the seer council and the beast packs from taking advantage of his stealth and hit and run, as well as using his 2++ (along with fortune) "tank" wounds for the squad while still allowing the character to perform his roll as a leader of hellions)

- the grimoire won't interact w/ foreboding (so either the grimoire gives you a 3++ or foreboding gives 4++ but the grimoire will NOT add 2 to the save given by foreboding; the warp storm can still mod them however) - this is to avoid the (effectively) 2++ w/ re-roll that the screamer-star relies on; it is still possible to get a 2++ w/ re-roll (through the grimoire and the warp storm table) but since it's so unpredictable i'm less worried about it.

- And now that void shields have a model, i've had a good look at the rules and this is how they'll be played at events i'm running. Void shields will effectively be an "invisible" guy in the unit w/ AV12; so if a unit under a void shield gets hit w/ a battle cannon covering 5 models, the shield takes 5 hits (if not, i think they're WAY underpriced for 50pts) no just one for the blast marker. (and of course, the rules from the book are still in play, so if the shield collapses on the 1st hit, then the next 4 wounds go on to models in the squad)

all 3 of those decisions are made with an eye to making the game more fun. when models are "impossible" to kill (or die whenever they are hit) the game is not very much fun. having to manage a certain amount of models dying a turn it part of the "strategy" of 40k.

I'd welcome discussions about the above decisions as well as about the use of Allies.

So, South Island 40kers, what do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:04 pm 
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I agree with all of those changes, however how does the two book limit work with codex supplements? Does my codex marines + IH supplement count as coming from two books, or am I just being blind?

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:40 pm 
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That would be 2 books (codex + supplement)

Using a fortification would too (codex + stronghold assault)

So 2 books is pretty restrictive


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Let me start by saying that the line does have to be drawn somewhere and where ever it is drawn will be arbitrary and will never please everyone.

So you are saying that in a pure dark eldar army with the baron as the HQ choice then when his hellion friends die somehow you can't join him (an IC) to any other squad?
You can't just say that battle brothers can't join allied squads (which was my first thought) as this means that the inquisitors will be left standing all by themselves in an IG/SM army.

You are putting restrictions on the demons getting a 2++ with reroll. Are you going to restrict the seer council aswell because they can get a 2+ Save, 2+ cover 4++ with reroll. In which case is it ok if you don't have the power which enhances the armour or cover save? Would not having both of the enhancements be ok? Would the enhancements but not the reroll be ok?
A common rule in the states (apparently) is that a 2++ with reroll only passes the second roll on a 4+.
What happens if the tzeentch demon prince boons for stealth, shrouding and +1 armour save? This would give him a 2+ armour and 2+ cover which rerolls 1's? Is that ok?

I have no opinion yet on the void shields as I haven't read the rules enough and thought of scenarios for it but I will get back to you on that.

In terms of the proposed 2 book (or 3 book or whatever) are fortifications that are in the rulebook considered the second book?


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:12 am 
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I can see the point with the Baron. i feel that if his squad dies, he's likely to die as well, but my solution does leave the issue of farseers hiding in Tau squads.

So yes, let's make a bigger blanket restriction: IC's at any level can only join squads from their own (parent) codex.

how does that sound to the rest of you?

as for re-rolling 2+ armour or 2+ cover. i don't think it's a problem. Someone has 2+ cover - get in to a fist fight w/ them, or use a flamer. Someone has 2+ armour - use plasma, melta, etc or get into a fist fight with them using a power axe/fist/klaw/etc. So i'm not against the seer council or the blob of screamers or the theoretical daemon prince below because there are counters to those things, from tar pitting them for the game, to using the right tools to cut them open. yes, they'll be hard but they won't be that extra level of "unstoppably" hard.

the issue is that there's not a counter for 2++ w/ a re-roll. there's no way to negate that save. so you're stuck wounding the character one time out of 36 on average. that's a bit ****.

the only goal of these events is have a good time, and i just feel like the 2++ w/ re-roll takes that away.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:51 pm 
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Wes wrote:
I can see the point with the Baron. i feel that if his squad dies, he's likely to die as well, but my solution does leave the issue of farseers hiding in Tau squads.

So yes, let's make a bigger blanket restriction: IC's at any level can only join squads from their own (parent) codex.

how does that sound to the rest of you?

as for re-rolling 2+ armour or 2+ cover. i don't think it's a problem. Someone has 2+ cover - get in to a fist fight w/ them, or use a flamer. Someone has 2+ armour - use plasma, melta, etc or get into a fist fight with them using a power axe/fist/klaw/etc. So i'm not against the seer council or the blob of screamers or the theoretical daemon prince below because there are counters to those things, from tar pitting them for the game, to using the right tools to cut them open. yes, they'll be hard but they won't be that extra level of "unstoppably" hard.

the issue is that there's not a counter for 2++ w/ a re-roll. there's no way to negate that save. so you're stuck wounding the character one time out of 36 on average. that's a bit ****.

the only goal of these events is have a good time, and i just feel like the 2++ w/ re-roll takes that away.


There is a counter. Destroyer weapons :P

Why dont you just limit things like WHFB with percentages...
max 25% allies
max 25% superheavies
max 25% fortifications
*you may never re-roll an invulnerable save*

There fixed 40k for yah 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Is that what's happening at Invecargill Invasion? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Wes wrote:
Is that what's happening at Invecargill Invasion? :lol:


Wouldnt have a clue

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:06 pm 
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you could even say allies, superheavies & fortifications combined, max 25%...

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:00 pm 
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I"d infinitely prefer a minimum points size for allies (somewhere around 250 points per det) to stop the Lone Inquisitor In The Guard Blob or Farseer + 5 Guardians. Make it something resembling a tax to take these nasty little allies, which will encourage people to take a good sized allied detachment, which I'm reasonably sure is what the designers intended.

2 sources kills the fluffier Imperium (I"m a bit biased cos this is exactly what I want to build next), but I can see the Xenos players want to keep it to two....

As for Superheavies, I'm extremely skeptical on these being remotely fair in 40k, tournament time or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:09 pm 
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I'm very sceptical of super heavies in non-appoc environments. Vs D weapons i guess they might make sense, but the fact that they can't be damaged (as in they ignore vehicle damage table results except "explodes") until they explode and nuke everything on the board is a pain.

So right now, i'm looking at:

ICs canNOT join allied squads
grimoire and foreboding don't interact
blasts will cause multiple hits on a void shield if they cover more than one model in the target squad

those will tone down all of the really messy "deathstars" (leaves the DE beast-star as somewhat viable)

next up, Allies:

we're a bit split between Imperial players correctly saying their fluff would allow multiple allies, and xenos players correctly saying they'll be at an allies disadvantage if that happens.

a minimum of 250 pts spent per allied slot is interesting. add that to the IC's not joining allied squads might reduce the shenanigans.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:20 pm 
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My reasoning behind the 250 points is so you can still do something like SM primary, with a smallish inquistition detachment and also IG or Sisters at 1750.

I did write a list (as yet untested) at 1750 which was something like this:

Pedro Kantor w/8 Sternguard in Drop Pod
5 Scouts in Landspeeder Storms x 2

Coteaz w/Crazy Choppy Mob in Landraider

Uriah Jacobus
12-14 Space NUns (can't remember how many lol)
Exorcist

Aegis Line

All of those detachments are well over 250 points, and this would be a fun as hell list to play and play against, and I think it would have a chance at winning a good portion of its games too.

I defy you to find a person who would ragequit rather than play against this.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:26 pm 
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I don't want some kind of Judith Collins situation cropping up, so I should say first up that I'm Zane, who'll be working with Wes for CavCon.

Based on my somewhat limited experience (played 5th in Christchurch, took last year off while in Dunedin for uni, into 6th (and uni) in Christchurch now), 40k has always been remarkably entertaining given how average the rules are and dodgy the balancing can be. In 5th edition the balancing wasn't such a huge issue, because codex creep was occurring one codex at a time.

The issue we have now is that allies (and a series of expansions that I personally view as "getting some quick cash by selling bigger plastic and damn the rules") make tournament balance vs using allowing as many fun toys as possible an absolute prick of a thing to try and do. Especially when a Titan can melt any sort of "basic" army into the ground solo with ranged D, and half a dozen Knights can rock up and render all of your normal weapons and specialised anti-infantry weapons useless. As stated above, an arbitrary line will need to be drawn, but the more informed we are about where the majority of players would like it to go the better we can do.

While percentages could possibly work in the long run with some work, we can't do much until we see how the average tournament list is split between detachments. I'll probably look at the CavCon ones and see where that split is, and it may well work out that there is a roughly similar ratio.

In allies terms, I quite like the idea of a minimum points per detachment to discourage the worst of the "cherry-picking".

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:32 pm 
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Min points for detachments and no allied squad-joining will probably take care of most of the common issues.

BaronStar, min troops with nasty IC are my personal gripes.

No mention of formations yet? These really help some of the dicier codexes (particularly the Bugs), but some are a tad on the OP side. I take it we're keeping them away from tournament time, pretty much to stop the horrid Tau ones?

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:47 pm 
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I think that the min allies ruling will work quite well. Not sure what the right level is yet, but 250 seems like a good starting point. I also quite like the, no intermingled IC thing. Will stop some nice softish combo's but takes out a lot of the cheese. So a good overall rule. And as for super heavies. Well they were designed for apocalypse and as far as I am concerned, they can stay there. I have not seen too much of the new data slates yet, so cannot really comment, other than to say that some dex need them, but only if they do not completely break everything.


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