South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 1:34 pm
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Location: Chch
The Inquisiton Codex finally lets me use the Inquisitor model that I have been using to lead my Imperial Guard for a long time as an Inquisitor.
So under your limitations he would not be able to join any unit in my army?

so if a unit under a void shield gets hit w/ a battle cannon covering 5 models, the shield takes 5 hits (if not, i think they're WAY underpriced for 50pts) no just one for the blast marker. (and of course, the rules from the book are still in play, so if the shield collapses on the 1st hit, then the next 4 wounds go on to models in the squad)

Going by this the void shield is better for elite armys than horde armys because they would have less models under the template therefore doing less hits on the shield.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
Right now the limitations are entirely a work in progress

I want things to be as fun (and fluffy) as possible. In trying to remove the possibility of really "unfun"/joyless armies, it will inevitably clip some armies unintentionally. in the case of a minimum number of pts spent per allied slot, that would spell the end of the "50pt for divination" Inquisitor. Not allowing ICs to join allied squads spells the end of stealth and hit and run on eldar units joined by the Baron.

So, under the current version of the restrictions, your Inquisitor would need to bring some friends with him (since i doubt he's 250pts) and they'd be the only people he could attach to (think of him as a bit of snob)

As for Void Shields, i suppose i'd rather not see them at all as they encourage people to castle up on either side of the board and shoot at each other w/ minimal movement. There are 3 maybe 4 armies that do that well, and a bunch that don't. It's not the direction i'd like to see the game head in. I'd rather not ban them outright, so i've interpreted their reasonably ambiguous rules in a way that makes them less effective vs blasts. I've yet to meet a canny player who doesn't space out his troops when they know large blasts are coming, so if you have a squad of 10 or 50, i'd still be hitting about the same number of guys.

and since Evil Yak/Chris asked about formations, i'd like to see them taken using the (normal) allies slot. that means that you can allies OR a formation but not both. It would also limit you to one formation. If imperials take a xeno ally/formation and then an inquisitorial ally, the inquisitor will treat everyone they way he would treat the xeno ally (so if space marines took a Tau formation, then an inquisitor and friends, the inquisitor would treat the entire army as "desperate allies"; if those marines are trusting xenos, how trustworthy can they really be?)

I'm happy to hear counter arguments for everything. I want to hear what people have to say. i know we're not all going to agree but if people continue to post, we might start to see some common themes.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:11 pm 
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Location: ChCh soon
Since some success at Warclouds, where I used Tau and SM, I have been testing out a Farseer with my dark eldar and have found the inclusion of allies, again, to be quite promising. However, with the way the rules are currently written, he is a bit too good for the low tax of a single 3 man jetbike squad. Fundamentally, I agree with a minimum points limit. If I throw him in with my reavers, all of a sudden the farseer is a skilled rider so needn't take dangerous terrain tests, benefits from Nightvision and can get a better jink save to boot as well as a 2+ save through look out sir. In real life, if I mountain bike with a better rider, I find myself lifting my game, so I can see how some, certainly not all, of the USRs apply to the logic of "if one in the unit can, the rule is conferred to all".
I would be sad if I were unable to join an IC like the farseer to his battle brothers, given that Dark Eldar are inherently extremely fragile anyway and die to a stiff breeze.
There are all sorts of things we can do to abuse the rule set. However, I wonder if the sort of rule dancing I committed chased away a few people I haven't seen at Woolston since Warclouds. I wanted to be competitive but at what cost to the local game?
2++ re-rollable saves? Come on, this is an absurd trend, people, that we must see saps the game of fun. Once the shadowfield fails, typically for me that is my second saving throw, it is supposed to break for good and my Archon is typically insta-gibbed.
6th edition has made some huge first time advances in the game. I harbour some strong personal feelings against fliers with AV greater than 11, the alarming trend of "ignores cover" and "d" weapons. I want 40K to be a fun and weird (somewhat) tactical experience more than my Invincible beatstick vs your impenetrable shield. Outside of a tournament, I am more than happy to take on a superheavy, or throw stuff at a 2++ unit, but I do wonder what these things signal about the type of player that runs them.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:23 pm 
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I understand wanting to run certain units together, Inquisitors in Company Command Squads or Farseers on bikes w/ Reavers, but then i'm put in the position of saying "this combo is ok, but this one isn't". I don't think that's a good place to be. Arbitrary restrictions (like the ones i'm talking about implementing) are bad enough but making them inconsistent ("farseer w/ reavers ok, but Baron w/ seer council is not") is worse i think.

The goal is to make a system that no one likes but that no one hates, since that's the closest we can get to the original rule book :roll: i know it's shame to put restrictions on the game. i know we should strive to play it the way it comes to us, but it's a **** mess now. if we just allowed everything, based on what i've read it'll be the least fun way to spend a weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Location: South Side of Hell. Then a bit more south.
Another style of event that could be looked at is a Highlander event (there can be only one).

I'm not going to be able to make it this year as I'm committed to nationals as one of my big trips away so I'm just going to be throwing ideas out there.

Wes you been involved with http://missioncatalog.com/

I've found that missions can really change the way some of the armies are working more so than changing their list building. Also LOS blocking in events are very important since wraithkights are just so dam tall. Also battlepoint are working better at stopping deathstars than W/L/D. This has more so come to light with Nids.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Location: South Side of Hell. Then a bit more south.
Also for Invercargill I will be asking the players what style they want.

Also you need to watch out for "Hobby killer" list Centurion star with farside.

There is a lot of deathstars out there at the moment and some few can be done just within one codex. I feel that the answer is in the missions and also the world on which they play on. Also we're still unsure what guard are going to bring as well. Due to the meta changing so quickly I'm thinking of extending the cut off for codex's.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:35 pm 
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I agree that good mission choices and terrain make a world of difference. i just interested in making sure the worst examples of "unfun" play are removed: 2++ re-rolling saves, and D weapons.

it's hard for most armies to have 2++ re-rolling without help from a second codex.

i'd also like to see allies used a more substantial part of the list, not just chosen because a single character can attach and buff a squad through USR sharing and psychic powers.

the best ever example of allies i've seen was my mate Cameron. There were 6 of us playing a few games of Daemons vs Marines, and he took his usual Black Templar army and allied in a squad of GK termies w/ a Captain (or whatever a GK HQ is) It fit the theme of the event beautifully.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:55 pm 
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If you didn't follow it the top player at the Torrent of Fire invitational was running marines with inquisitor's and he was able to win against jetstar. The thing is he still used a Deathstar. We really need to look to the missions to sort this and not to the army. A deathstar can't be everywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:02 pm 
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Some deathstars can in fact be everywhere (the seer council on bikes moves 48" per turn if it wants, and screamer-star isn't slow; 36" a turn i think) and while i want there to be the least amount of TO intrusion in the list building, in the name of having fun, and in the name of allowing people who aren't running any of the fancy "new" builds to keep up the (proverbial) Jones, i think there have to be a few guidelines/restrictions in place.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Just thought.

How bad would it be to the game to allow only one IC to join each squad? Would this help more than it would hinder? That would also stop the O'Vessa star as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:15 pm 
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Wes wrote:
Some deathstars can in fact be everywhere (the seer council on bikes moves 48" per turn if it wants, and screamer-star isn't slow; 36" a turn i think) and while i want there to be the least amount of TO intrusion in the list building, in the name of having fun, and in the name of allowing people who aren't running any of the fancy "new" builds to keep up the (proverbial) Jones, i think there have to be a few guidelines/restrictions in place.



If they turbo boost they can't be fighting. Horde Nid is having some good results against JetStar with board control.

The game is very much Rock, paper, scissors

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:23 pm 
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TheDead wrote:
The game is very much Rock, paper, scissors


exactly. i'd like it to be less so. i'd like to see lists that were just what people had lying around and like to see them make it into the top 10 (if they were competent generals) rather than be bottom 3rd because they didn't buy the new shiny

missions and terrain will help. carefully thought out restrictions can help. the trick is getting input from as many as possible as to what they'd like to see. we're still debating making each allies slot require a min number of pts vs only allowing an army to be built from 2 books.

neither will stop the cheese but should help reduce the worst bits (along with the afford mentioned ICs only attaching to units from their own codex)


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:36 am 
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Location: Halswell-Christchurch
Hey Wes/guys! Not sure if anyone is interested in hearing my two pence worth but here it comes anyway lol! Over the last few years I've noticed a worrying decline in the 40k scene. I remember a time when we used to struggle for enough space for 40k at tournies and limit numbers to 40 or so and had young faces all over the place.....them days seem long gone looking around now! These were the times when fluff was a major part and allies were unheard of to a degree, and this is where I feel we need to head back to keep the gaming scene alive! I know of at least 10 players just around my neck of the woods who used to be active in the scene but now refuse to play at clubs or tournies because of the holes allies and 6th ed has opened up for the 'win at all costs' players who make lists to essentially abuse and suck the fun from games nowadays at times (and that leaves quite a hole in a gaming scene our size). A true gamer who plays for the right reasons just would'nt even entertain the idea of posting 'how about this combo or deathstar' etc.If people want to run certain models then they should use the specific codex for them....the only exceptions should be codices that are specific to ally such as Inquisition, imperial knights and legion of the damned maybe. Also I think the missions play a big part in the gaming....they are becoming 6th ed generic and so armies are tailored for them-maybe catch up with Papa Smurf and run some missions along the lines of when he was a T/O with ideas such as removing an opponents unit up to 250pts from their list....made things interesting as you needed to make sure your remaining units were fairly ambidextrous to cover any holes. Also random things happening such as the Earthquake scenario which was fun and topical at the time and not knowing objectives points till the end of the game. Also the younger players are losing interest by the way some people prey on them with a view to easy wins which is so de-moralising for them they just want to stay away which is wrong as they will be the lifeblood for the longevity of the game. I think fluff should be a major part of the scoring still, along with best sports points but still use some of the concepts from 6th such as F/Blood, L/Breaker and Slay the Warlord etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:31 am
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Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
In addition to the missions helping to balance out the lists we also used to use comp scores.

I am not saying that we should award points for comp. This has always been difficult to quantify and would be even harder now with allies but I liked it when it was used to determine first round match ups. It stops new players who have thrown in upgrades or borrowed models to make the points limit from facing cheese monkey's like me in the first round.

I was thinking of dividing people into 3 groups: easy, hard and cheese (these are the polite labels) and randomizing the first round so that people play people from the same group. The same system could be used to organise the second round as lots of people will have the same scores at that point.
Obviously after that it's down to pure battle points.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:47 am 
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I don't know that the Christchurch community is as dark as all that (I can't speak for the rest of the country). Honestly, we have very few WAAC netlist players, and far more players who know their armies inside-out and win as a result. Tyranids "shouldn't" be good, yet still do well in Christchurch because the players know what Bugs to throw where. We have a Blood Angels assault-based army in a "Shooty" edition that does well on account of good target priority. I'm currently fairly shoddy because I'm still working out my CSM-Guard merger. If people do run netlists, they often get chewed up because owning the models and knowing the list are two different things.

Combos and deathstars have always been a thing that we love as gamers. I still have nightmares about wound-differentiated Nobs rampaging through my list. They are occasionally far too potent now (and Escalation/D Weapons are outright silly), and we're trying to neuter the most extreme disaster zones, but players have always looked to run them. We still have young/new blood at Cavs, riding the same learning curve we all ride or have ridden, and those of us who have been around for a while try to be helpful and keep them interested.

I like the missions for variety in 6th relative to 5th (Heavy Support can score 1/6th of the time? Relics? Variable objectives?) but TOs are putting enough randomness in regardless- NatCon has one hell of a spread.

In short: I'd argue we aren't in decline, just recalibrating after a stack of releases. We'll thrash this out eventually. In that regard, bringing back Composition may be a good idea.

Edit: Because I can't spull.

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