South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:40 pm 
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I do want everyone's opinions. that's the point of posting here, and not holding discussions in the "back rooms" of clubs among the same 4 people (thus reinforcing the same ideas rather than hearing new ones)

that said, nostalgia is a dangerous thing. :wink:

Allies were part of 4th ed, and survived in 5th as part of the witchhunter and Grey Knight codexes until they were replaced. This lead to GK termies trying to ride around in Valkaries and Inquistors being allied into IG lists.

And while it leads to issues of balance, nothing could be fluffier than Marines coming to the rescue of guard or of Inquisition lead SM or guard missions. Did the GK turn up to bail your SM out because they were beset by Daemons? more allies. In theory, nothing is fluffier than (some, not all, but some) allies. it's given hobbyists and modelers a fantastic platform to build very characterful armies.

So allowing people to take as much of their army to an event as possible is definitely part of the goal. In the interests of balance, some restrictions have to be made (hence this thread) but i'm trying to come up with a system that lets someone (like Jason) take his Inquisitor lead IG army without opening the door to more abusive and less fluffy uses of allies. the slope is very slippery but talking about it here is the best we, as a "community" of 40k players, can do. not everyone will be happy, but hopefully the majority will.

the question of the number of people at events is an interesting one. as shown in this thread (1st post) viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11154 the number for Conquest over the years have fluctuated between 48 and 24 for 40k, and have little relation to the edition or the person running the events (i ran 2012 and 2013, while james/ultra papa smurf ran 2011 and 2010 (at least)) The reasons in the feedback thread from Conquest 2013 for the low numbers seemed to indicated that real life (babies, new homes, work/time-off) were major decisions in not attending, as well as the upcoming NatCon of 2014.

When i arrived in Christchurch, Warclouds that year attracted 5 people; it was run for laughs and had some very crazy, off the wall missions. The next year Jason ran it as a doubles event and it attracted ~8 teams i think (i'm sure there are records) and has grown steadily since then. It attracted southlanders last year and a pair of Aussies this year.

CavCon was a brand new event in 2012 and attracted 42 people. The next year we had 42 again. This year, because of NatCon i suspect numbers will be down as well.

Nathan Wright is running his own 40k event called the Ides of May, and i'm curious to see the turn out for that since this is the 1st year it's a 40k event.

Based on that evidence, i'm just not seeing a decline in 40k numbers.

Anecdotally, the Cavs had 3 tables of 40k this past week where i didn't know at least one of the people playing as well as the "regular" ~3 tables. When i was last at Woolston (a couple of weeks back) the regular crowd was in but there was more talking than playing (i was one of 3 games) but that's not a fair or representative picture of either club. that's just one random day for each.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Well maybe more effective use of sidebars may be the way to go to hamper some builds? Example say a core 1500pt mono build army for the whole tournie with a 250pt ally list for a mission or two....that way people can at least try out their nasty little combo's or new shiny toys but at least it isn't going to cripple everyone-every game? Other sidebars could be for extra fast attack/heavies etc and so on and so on!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:58 pm 
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Sidebars have been used off and on. We used them last year at Conquest and they were popular enough.

There's an interesting FAQ here: http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/03/a-faq-for-our-times/

and i'm wondering if using it will solve enough problems to make the allies issue moot. I'm always in favour of using existing material instead of creating my own (less bias from me, and less time taken to make it)


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Wes wrote:
the number for Conquest over the years have fluctuated between 48 and 24 for 40k, and have little relation to the edition or the person running the events (i ran 2012 and 2013, while james/ultra papa smurf ran 2011 and 2010 (at least))


I can't remember exactly when (probably 2008/09), but I ran/helped run 40k at conquest for at least two years before this, and much of the long standing playerbase is still there playing 40k (maybe not as much), but many of the players I knew back then have since branched out into other games as well and as a result split their tournament presence amongst many systems now rather than just playing 40k for 10 years running.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:56 am 
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On the whole 40K player base thing, I'd say despite loosing a good handful of the old regulars to warma/hoardes the numbers are still fairly consistent due to new players picking up 40K. I'm not a regular at any of the clubs so it's more based off experience at tournaments, it could be that the number of regulars at the club nights is in decline, I couldn't comment on that. I do know that the Tag club has seen a loss of 40k players over the last few years based on what Troy has said, but that seems localized to that region.

As for the allies debate, the prevention of IC's joining allied units would certainly prevent some of the horrid internet lists we hear about but to be honest does anyone actually run that stuff in the local meta? Are we not just over reacting based on whats happening elsewhere?
I like the idea of a minimum points allocation if you take an ally and at 1750pts, which seems to be favored at the moment, 250pts per ally does feel about right.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:31 am 
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Also I'd really like to see a revised allies matrix.
Some of the possible combos just make no sense fluff wise and I'm sure were done more with potential sales in mind rather than anything else.

Tau for instance shouldn't be battle brothers with any one else. In my mind battle brothers suggests it should be very common for the two races to fight together and very unlikely they would ever fight against one another. That certainly rules Tau out for battle brothers with the imperium when fluff wise they are starting to expand their empire into outlying sectors of imperium space.

Likewise Necrons see the universe as there own and every other race just a disease to be eradicated so that they can once again rule supreme. That's not a race that would go out of it's way to form an alliance is it?

Eldar and Dark Eldar, well there is a fundamental difference of opinion which lead to them splitting into separate races. Surely battle brothers doesn't fit when they are more likely to fight than shake hands?

I could go on but I think my point is made. Tightening up the allies matrix pretty much takes care of most of the "broken" combos I can think of without having to put any other restrictions in place at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Quote:
Likewise Necrons see the universe as there own and every other race just a disease to be eradicated so that they can once again rule supreme. That's not a race that would go out of it's way to form an alliance is it?


Not all Necrons see it like that. Some have had their programming corrupted and have since changed. Some going as far to have non Necron advisers.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:36 pm 
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FlangeNabber wrote:

Likewise Necrons see the universe as there own and every other race just a disease to be eradicated so that they can once again rule supreme. That's not a race that would go out of


Most Necron Dynasties have vassal worlds they rule over in their region of space, others use mind control to subordinate the lesser races, some wear the lesser races as coats while others just walk all over them like ants. Necrons have many fluffy ways to ally.

FlangeNabber wrote:

Eldar and Dark Eldar, well there is a fundamental difference of opinion which lead to them splitting into separate races. Surely battle brothers doesn't fit when they are more likely to fight than shake hands?


China and Japan have fundamentally different views in how to run their country, however they would still go to each others aid if aliens invaded...

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Quote:
China and Japan have fundamentally different views in how to run their country, however they would still go to each others aid if aliens invaded...


Lols, brings visions of Godzilla stomping through the streets of Beijing only to be stopped in its track by a giant Japanese robot - all to the background music of intergalactic by the Beasty Boys, hell yea.
Does strike me as the Aliens invading scenario describes a "desperate" allies situation though, not battle brothers, just saying.

Quote:
Most Necron Dynasties have vassal worlds they rule over in their region of space, others use mind control to subordinate the lesser races, some wear the lesser races as coats while others just walk all over them like ants. Necrons have many fluffy ways to ally.


I see the point, but I feel in the scenarios described the Necrons are using the other races because in the near term they see it more convenient to use them than exterminate them. That describes perfectly the allies of convenience scenario to me. GW may have got this one about right as it is I guess.


Please keep in mind many of us have invested interests in certain allies combos because lets face it the models are getting extremely expensive, not to mention the labor a love (and hate) with assembling and painting them. None of us want to see anyone alienated because their particular combo no longer works.
On the other hand it's clear GW are even less interested in game balance than ever before, we as a community need to take some of the responsibility for improving game balance because it's clear GW have no interest in doing it for us.

I really do see the allies matrix as the best place to start as it doesn't require any changes to core rules so will have the least impact on how the game plays. Simply reducing the number of battle brother combos automatically removes things like the Baron/Jetseer, beastpack/Jetseer and buffmander/<add unit of your choice> combos which have become the decay of fun 40K in many of the foreign meta's. Doing this doesn't stop you from taking said allies, doesn't effect the ability of allied troops to claim/contest but does plug a lot of holes in the game balance created by poorly implemented rules.

If we simply do as others have suggested and prevent allied HQ's from joining units not from their own detachment you have pretty much just dropped all battle brothers back to allies of convenience any way.


Last edited by FlangeNabber on Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:59 pm 
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removing battle brothers is a good start; everyone is allies of convenience or worse.

it leaves only 2 major trouble makers:

-the seer council (yes, i'll take a 2+/3+ cover/4++ w/ re-rolls) - limiting fortune and misfortune to a single kind of save (chosen when you cast) is a nice start.

- the screamer/herald of tzeench blob (2++ re-rolling ones) - limiting the grimoire to only affecting the daemon save (and not foreboding) helps there.

could those 3 options be all it takes?


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:53 am 
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Wes, Reecius at Frontline Gaming has been on the case of the 2+ rerollable saves for a long time.

He has implemented a house rule for all his events where if your initial save is a 2+ and for what ever reason you are allowed to reroll that save if failed, the reroll is automatically reduced to a 4+ save, not the 2+ you originally rolled against. It means the units that have access to those rerolls still benefit from the increase in survivability but are now failing at rate of 1 in 12 as opposed to 1 in 36 so 3 times as many wounds make it through in effect.

It's still better than a 3+ with rerolls so we don't end up with silly situations where the 3+ rerollable is better, but at the same time it nerfs the 2+ to a leavel that is "manageable"


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:42 am 
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I know they implemented that at (i think) the Los Vegas open. I don't dislike it but i feel the truth is a 2+ armour re-rolling or a 2+ cover re-rolling isn't at all game breaking; every army has tools for those. i don't want to mess around with those at all. The "3++ is the new black FAQ" decision (that fortune/misfortune has to pick a kind of save, and that the grimoire doesn't interact w/ foreboding) is a "neater"/less intrusive solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:53 am 
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You see that's where our opinions differ, I don't have a problem with fortune or misfortune the way they are written, nor the grimoire & foreboding combo. They work as they are intended in my opinion, GW just didn't try to break them when play testing and missed some obvious combos.

The problem for me is units that fail 1 in 36 saves. That's 108 BS4 bolter shots to land a single wound on one of those units. That just isn't fun to play against and that's where my objection lies.
The 2+ re rolls as 4+ solution takes that to 36 BS4 bolter shots to land that wound which is still crazy tough but at least you can slowly chip away.

In my mind the 2+ re rolling as a 4+ solution means there's one rule to cover them all which is actually easier to implement because as a player if your not familiar with the grimoire/forboding or fortune situations because you don't play with or against those it doesn't matter because it's easy to remember 2+ re rolls as 4+ if you come up against it.

It's also impossible to get around with shenanigans like casting fortune twice which isn't the case with the solution from the 3++ blog by the way.

It means that you have a rule that deals with new incarnations of 2+ re rollable saves that might appear in later releases (and earlier releases - Tycho) without having to add any new rules.

And most importantly in my opinion, because it specifically only targets 2+ re rollable saves, it allows all the items of wargear and psychic powers to work "as intended" so it doesn't mess with alternate builds that rely on those things to work but are far less over the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:53 am 
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I'll definitely have a think about it. I'm waiting to see how NatCon plays out, since that's the more "serious" event. Things like Ides of May and CavCon won't need to worry about this since those aren't the sorts of lists we want people to bring. Conquest on the other hand is the event that i'm most interested in "solving" since, like NatCon, it's a more "serious" event where people will try and take "hard" lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Allies at big events
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:13 am 
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Yea, I agree. I'd like to think theres no need to implement any of this in the local metas. I certainly haven't seen any of the abusive net lists that run these problem death stars at local events before. But I did only a month ago play against James with his jetseer list he took to Auckland. They are out there and it's only a matter of time I'd say.

On that note im starting to think my white scars might get put in the box for a while after Natcon. They do seem to be very powerful and I think for those fun events on the way they might be a bit much. Not sure what ill do but it might be back to grey knights until I see what the ork codex has to offer.


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