South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

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 Post subject: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Hey guys,

I was reading the warcow 40k players pack, mostly because I was wishing I could go. But, I noticed that one of the rules were that special characters had to use the actual model in order to be legal.

Now my question is: How lenient is this rule and do most people tend to follow it in club games to an extent (perhaps with more leniency)?

I ask (especially leniency) as I am true scaling my legions of chaos marines it means I'm upgrading old kharney and I figured it would be a great opportunity to give the old fella a bit more dynamism. To the point, he will be pretty extensively converted using a few parts from the old model which will hopefully leave him recognisable as kharn and not some counts-as boffin.

So basically this gist is: whats the intention of above rule? to prevent counts-as specials, or to limit specials in general because lots of people like to convert up their characters.

thanks!

ps. I realise having some sweet pictures might help people lean towards saying hes ok, but I don't want to do some sweet conversions only to have issues when I try use him ingame.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:53 pm 
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That was only for that tournament, most of the time tournaments only allow one or no special/named characters. For friendly games you shouldn't have any problems.

I myself have and use a lot of 'counts as' models.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:33 am 
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AJ wrote:
That was only for that tournament, most of the time tournaments only allow one or no special/named characters. For friendly games you shouldn't have any problems.

I myself have and use a lot of 'counts as' models.


Ok well thats a good start! But, what if I wanted to use him in the next warclouds to roll around or presumably other tournaments (hopefully theres more than one a year excluding nationals?).

Is it a pretty strict ruling to "must be the character model released by GW" or is more "it should be recognisable as the character in the codex" (ergo: a lysander that is made from plastic terminator but has a similar shield, thunderhammer and head and painted in yellow but in a more dynamic pose is a-OK)

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:00 pm 
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alphz wrote:
Ok well thats a good start! But, what if I wanted to use him in the next warclouds to roll around or presumably other tournaments (hopefully theres more than one a year excluding nationals?).

Is it a pretty strict ruling to "must be the character model released by GW" or is more "it should be recognisable as the character in the codex" (ergo: a lysander that is made from plastic terminator but has a similar shield, thunderhammer and head and painted in yellow but in a more dynamic pose is a-OK)


The other tournaments this year in Chch are Tempest and Conquest. If you are willing to travel else where like Timaru, Dunedin and Greymouth there ends up being about one a month. All have their info on these forums under the events section released closer to the time.

As for rulings on Special/named characters it is all dependant on the tournament organiser. Warclouds and Nationals have the restriction of GW models if they exist while other tournaments you could use a fancy looking terminator with SS/TH and paint him whatever colour and call him Lysander. However with taking a SC many players will drop you comp if you take one that looks like a power gaming exploit. Eg ATM Eldar with both Eldrad and Yierl, SM with Vulkan, Long Fangs in drop pod with Logan, Mephestion, and even more so if it isn't the correct chapter/colour scheme.

In a nutshell in you want to take a SC at a tournament, do so at your own risk. Most of the time the power they bring will offset any penalty but sometimes it is easier to take a normal verison lose some battle points but collect a lot more soft score points

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Thanks for that Papa smurf! Not quite what I'm after on the SC rulings.

Firstly, playing chaos I think I might be alright in terms of comp based purely on the fact my army doesn't include daemon princes or obliterators :P Besides I'm more concerned with the being able to take my converted SC vs not being able to take him in given tournaments that stipulate requirements on taking them.

So lets take warclouds as the example. If the requirement is the GW model, where is the line drawn? Is it a completely unconverted stock character model out of the blister? Or is a conversion which uses some of the parts/is clearly recognisable as said character also OK?

Taking a shiny thunderhammer/SS terminator and calling him Lysander is what I consider count-as and not part of my question.

I appreciate the input on comp scores and SC however, I think I might consider building myself a chaos lord for such situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:17 pm 
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ultra papa smurf wrote:
alphz wrote:
Warclouds and Nationals have the restriction of GW models if they exist


When did those rulings come about, and why?
I would have expected one of the boons of indy tournaments is being able to use the models one likes?
With no manufacture involved is seems a political decision. :( :?


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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:02 pm 
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If a company is providing prizes or funding (or intellectual property) towards an event then it's understandable that they would place restrictions on what models are used during the event. That's a pretty standard fare in tournaments from what I've heard and read, and has been like that for a long period of time. I have no idea about what NZ tournaments are like though.

Did you know that GW and PP ask that you don't include IP from a 3rd party in your conversions? I don't know if they demand it, but they've got it written down in the legal sections of their websites. I would not be surprised if it was a standard legal requirement for these big companies.

Pretty depressing, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:24 pm 
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|twynsic|e wrote:
ultra papa smurf wrote:
Warclouds and Nationals have the restriction of GW models if they exist


When did those rulings come about, and why?
I would have expected one of the boons of indy tournaments is being able to use the models one likes?
With no manufacture involved is seems a political decision. :( :?


The decision for Nationals was decided by the Woolston club commitee so I assume it was the same for Warclouds. As far as I can tell it is a kneejerk reaction to SC one step short of banning them completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Ah, I think a misunderstanding on mybehalf, i read your post as every model had to be official GW, but looking at the players packs it's just the special character having to be the right one.


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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Yeah its fairly common to have limitations on manufacturer models at tournaments to try encourage IP protection or business safety.

But does anyone know what the intention is for the warcloud ruling of the 'special characters must be the model'?? Is a conversion based on the model still legal?? Whats the precedent on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Nothing to do with that in my regard, it was more the fact that GW is terrible for making under-priced over the top characters that are not properly field tested and teamed up with stupid rules under 5th you can make game winning lists without trying.

Personally I couldn't give a crap about whether you use GW's figures or not, it was just a way of limiting the use of SC/NC at the competition without restricting them.

I would never base your list around a SC/NC to begin with, because your opponent in a normal game can just tell you to sod off. Much easier just to use the basic HQ choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Chomo-Uri wrote:
Pretty depressing, eh?


Not really, it is quite understandable, they are companies after all, in the likes of PP they try to provide awesome figures and rules and it is understandable that would like you to use their figures. Again it doesn't bother me, we have a local legion player that uses GW figures in his army.

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:42 pm 
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AJ wrote:
I would never base your list around a SC/NC to begin with, because your opponent in a normal game can just tell you to sod off. Much easier just to use the basic HQ choices.


This is true, but applies just as equally to whatever you choose to field in your army. As SC don't require special permission of any sort (in 40k). Basing your army off named characters is perfectly viable, if done in a cheesy way; much like any other combo your opponent is free to flag on playing you.

Ps. Who on this board is part of the woolston commitee that were involved in making the warclouds player pack that I could possibly PM about this?

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Actually technically 'Special Characters' don't exist anymore, so you could argue that any model with the special character rule cannot be fielded AT ALL ;)

Personally I just think you're trying to justify the use of an overpowered character in your army, since Alpha Legion does not have a named/special character in the Codex.

Again I don't care as I don't play 40k anymore your free to do what you want, I was just justifying my choice to only allow special/named characters if you have the official model.

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I don't beleave you AJ, we all know your a computer that shoots wonderfully painted mini's out of your butt every day

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 Post subject: Re: Converted Special characters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:00 pm 
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alphz wrote:
AJ wrote:
I would never base your list around a SC/NC to begin with, because your opponent in a normal game can just tell you to sod off. Much easier just to use the basic HQ choices.


This is true, but applies just as equally to whatever you choose to field in your army. As SC don't require special permission of any sort (in 40k). Basing your army off named characters is perfectly viable, if done in a cheesy way; much like any other combo your opponent is free to flag on playing you.

Ps. Who on this board is part of the woolston commitee that were involved in making the warclouds player pack that I could possibly PM about this?



from my second hand information no one set up to run it so AJ did and since he was TO he could do what he liked. for it. you did not like then you did not play. He could of said no heavy supports and players had to deal with it. He was running it he makes the rule.

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