South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

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 Post subject: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:24 pm 
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This is in conjunction with my game org post about a friendly in a couple of weeks just incase anyone might feel the need to tailor their list and give a youngin a beat down.

But, I'm more hoping for a little constructive feedback... Do I have enough bodies? is my semi mech inferior? is my list bad in terms of comp?

Kharn the Betrayer 165

7 khorne bezerkers 187
+ powerfist

4 Terminators 140
+ 4 combi-melta

8 Chosen 239
+ Icon of Chaos
+ 5 Meltafuns
Rhino

10 Chaos Marines 245
+ Icon of Chaos
+ 2 Flamers
+ Champ w/Powerfist
Rhino

8 Plague Marines 294
+ Icon
+ 2 Plasmarifle
+ Champ w/Powerfist
Rhino

Havok Marines 150
+3 Autocannons

Predator 105
+ Autocannon + heavy bolters
+ Pintle combi bolter

Landraider 225
+ dozerblades

Thanks in advance!

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Last edited by alphz on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:48 am 
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I love the feel of the army, each unit has its role.

I would be a little concerned about the low scoring bodies, especially as it seems each troop is designed to be used in a different third of the battlefield with a bit of crossover between the plague marine and csm squad. It can be annoying being forced to play for the draw due to early troop losses.

An inherent issue that arises with such specialist units is that they make the enemies target priority easy but this can be worked around, and in the hands of a good general i can see it doing well.

As for comp, i think this should get a 4/5.
Alot of the better choices have been left behind such as oblits and daemon princes.
The codex is an older one with less power per point compared to 5th edition codici (sp)
The army has adapted for 5th edition nicely by meching up and bringing some counter mech, although not excessive amounts.
List needs to be used with skill to do well, its not just point and click.

Im a strong believer that theme and comp measure different things. What is the armies theme?

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:07 am 
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Personally I'd look at dropping the Chosen in favour of another scoring unit. You can have too much of a good thing, and while they have 5 Meltas, you're unlikely to really get the full value of that much tank stopping power in one place if your opponent has a Landraider and is silly enough to let you have a go at it.

Two meltas in two places is better than five in one place :) Plus the extra scoring unit will count for a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:43 am 
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@kamerryn: I have agonised over the choice for awhile now and just cant quite lean either way. For the same points I can get a squad of 10 marines with 2 meltas, a champ with a combimelta and (if I can scratch some more points) a power weapon. But I feel a bit average about forking 25 points for a 1 shot melta. Any suggestions on how I could outfit the unit?

Secondly, the chosen give me the nostalgia of alpha legion with their infiltrateyness and the outflank gives me a little more tactical mystery (although all the mystery might lay it down a bit thin when it comes to the crunch). Finally, I find it hard to turn away from FIVE meltaguns... If I took them out I'd be down to 2 meltaguns in one place vs 5 in one place, not 2 in two places??

How crucial do objectives play in todays games (I haven't played since 3rd / 1 game in 4th)? will 25 guys struggle significantly or can I rely on my 'inyouface' units to provide enough distraction? I am fully expecting most objective captures to be done by a hobbling pair of marines (icons of fortune allowing!).

@Sjackson: Wow thanks for the great feedback, it makes ya feel good about the amount of list crunching done to get such positive and constructive comments.

I was aiming for something that can atleast bring a challenge to the table primarily by virtue of variety, with victory being stolen by careful application of strategy. Im very excited to give it a whirl on the field!

As for the theme, I hope you're up for a read... its still a work in progress but the overarching idea was origins in alpha legion. The cell around the regions of Segmentum Pacificus were exposed by a persistent inquisitor and a good dose of misfortune. The resulting ambush destroyed much of the forces for each cell group, and the remnants rallied together and fled.

After a series of further misfortunes and a lack of success at shaking the inquisitor the remnants reformed under a new name and banner: The seventh (as seven has many connotations for luck and fate), repainted in a overt orange colour resembling that of a piractical warband that was operating in the area. They maintained a sort of superstition around luck and fate, so often go to battle carrying tokens, painted symbols and banners.

There will hopefully be a few subtle throwbacks to alpha legion, and I tried to retain the alpha legion feel of warfare with a strike on multiple fronts and win through multiple means. Each unit has a very unique style from each other and a dominant theme of their own alongside the overall army theme (ragtag, banners and symbols which are thought as sorts of lucky charms), to represent units from different cells banding together and reforming a heirarchy. The cult units have a more unified appearance to the line troops to help differentiate. For example, the plague marines are represented as an honour gaurd of sorts, the icon representing the army banner. Veterans who also have a strong faith in fate and a sort of belief system around death, accompanied by the company apothecary and wearing adhoc (but somewhat uniform) heavy armour.

I used Kharn in the army for three reasons, A) I started warhammer with a khorne army and have a good following of khornate marines and daemons which have fallen out of use in the recent codex, kharn was given to me when I started playing and was one of the first models I ever owned so lots of nostalgia there. B) Going with the alpha legion theme the 'actual' leaders are represented by the squad champions who form a sort of leading council rather than one single leader (heads of the hydra) and they are called the moirai (much like the sisters of fate in pagan/roman religion) so I needed an HQ choice for Force Org C) Hes a pretty decent HQ in lieu of other less ideal choices.

Of course if you have kharn, he should be accompanied by bezerkers.

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:21 pm 
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I recon take the two flamers out of the troops and give the chosen 5 flamers for 5pts each

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Sorry I should elaborate. I meant that with some weapon swaps you'd have the option to have multiple iterations of double melta. I see where you're coming from though with keeping the Chosen as a nod to Alpha Legion, I do wonder though how having three HS selections fits in with that, given that smoke belching and clattering tanks aren't renowned for their sneakiness.

By all means keep the Chosen for the theme, I'm not sure though that 5 Meltaguns is the way to go with them - bearing in mind that if you choose to outflank them, they're not going to show up until turn 2 or turn 3 on average, by which time most of the stuff you'll be wanting 5 meltas to kill (Landraiders and Russes - anything else is complete overkill) will already have done what it wants to do, and most opponents won't be silly enough to stick something like that within range of outflanking meltaguns anyway. Perhaps look at Plasmaguns for greater utility - just as good if not better re volume of shots against the weak side armour of most vehicles in the game, and most of the tanks you'll be wanting to pounce on with an outflanking unit will be squishy artillery pieces like Basilisks etc that lurk in a corner, plus far more useful against heavy infantry on foot, monstrous critters etc.

Objectives are important enough that you might struggle with only 3 scoring units, particularly given that the Berserkers aren't likely to survive many games by virtue of the way they operate (of the "inyoface" breed), but if you shepherd them carefully you will probably be ok at 1750.

One thing I'd recommend you definitely find the points for is extra armour for the Landraider as having that stunned before it unloads in someone's face would be deeply aggravating. Perhaps look at swapping out the Berserker Powerfist for a powerweapon instead - I can speak from experience that a Furiously Charging powerweapon at WS, S and I 5 with a zillion attacks isn't fun.


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:08 pm 
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From a career Chaos player and Kharn owner:

The Predator is a bit of a waste of time, as you can't move and shoot all weapons, and any tank that doesn't move is going to be easy bait for outflankers etc. My Predator has been gathering dust for a while for a good reason....

I'd either drop the chosen, or arm them with flamers. You've already got those 4 deepstriking combimeltas on the Suicide Termy Squad (at least I gather that's why theyre in there....). I'd perhaps look at giving them a couple more bodies with the points you're throwing away on the predator. Maybe a squad of 7 if you can find the points......? That would certainly get people's attention.

I'm with Kam and jacko, 3 squads is not a whole lot of troop choice. I played Conquest last year with 3 meched troops choices, and it didn't go that well for me.

Extra Armor on the landraider is a must, and if you can stretch another 5 points, Daemonic Possession is even better. You're all twinlinked, so BS3 isn't so bad, you still don't miss much.

Make sure you do diversify the special weapons a bit, as all meltas is brilliant right up to the point you play a horde...

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Thanks kamerryn, I think I see where you're coming from, I had really wanted chosen to be more of a small 5 man infiltrating unit but points meant it was all or nothing with that squad as I couldn't jiggle to get them and some more troops at 1750 given my current path. Maybe leave them for a higher points or a different army layout.

Also the chosen are really a just nod to alpha, not that this army is alpha legion in its entirety. In addition, alpha legion aren't just about infiltrating.

How about this as an alternative for consideration? I'm not entirely sold on the combimeltas on the rhinos but can't really think of a better application of the 20 points, and I don't like the price of plasma for how much friendly fire it inflicts to me (the gods never seem to smile favourably).

I'm not particularly keen on ditching the powerfist in the bezerkers as it will likely be necessary to eat into any gribblies I get stuck into with and I feel Kharn will be dishing plenty of I5 power weapon death for any one squad to handle, he will also probably receive a fair bit of attention for it leaving Mr. Fist to do some dirty work.

Kharn the Betrayer 165

7 khorne bezerkers 187
+ Powerfist

4 Terminators 140
+ 4 combi-melta

10 Chaos Marines 225
+ Icon of Chaos
+ 2 meltaguns
Rhino
+Combimelta

10 Chaos Marines 255
+ Icon of Chaos
+ 2 Flamers
+ Champ w/Powerfist
Rhino
+Combimelta

8 Plague Marines 294
+ Icon
+ 2 Plasmarifle
+ Champ w/Powerfist
Rhino

Havok Marines 150
+3 Autocannons

Predator 100
+ Autocannon + heavy bolters

Landraider 235
+ extra armour

I've left most of the themeyness at home for a easier read of the list at this point.

EDIT: @Yak, I am fully aware of the more or less waste of space that predators are, and for the points I could probably have all the infantry I like. Its worth reconsidering, but I love my predator so much :(

Another alternative (to the predator) is a powersword champ in the melta chaos uni and a 5 man squad of marines with a plasmagun to sit on the home objective is the best I could imagine with models and points. I briefly considered having two units of 3 terminators for suicide but decided it was a bit much suiciding for my like.

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:30 am 
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After reading this thread I don't understand why some tanks can fire all their weapons but others (predators) can't? Why is this and how do the rules explain it?


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:39 am 
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Tanks can all fire all their guns (apart from ordnance obviously unless it's a Russ) if they remain stationary. However the vast majority of them can only fire one main weapon (anything of S5+) if they move, only defensive weapons (<S4) are unaffected by this. I believe in 4th ed a defensive weapon was anything of S5 or less.

So Predators went out of favour as they used to be able to fire all their guns if they moved up to 6", but now they can only do it if they sit still, which makes them easier to kill and easier to avoid.


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:48 am 
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Thanks for the reply. I haven't played the current rules and I always wondered about this when I read battle reports or list discussions.


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:07 am 
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All good :)


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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:47 pm 
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so is that what mass land raider crusaders good, that they can advance and still fire their hurricanes?

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:54 pm 
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exactly. It moves forward and shoots everything.

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 Post subject: Re: 1750 Chaos Marines *Edit: new list at bottom*
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Yeah, a Crusader can advance and fire the usual one main weapon along with another main weapon because of Power of the Machine Spirit, and then also fire its Hurricanes because they're defensive.

It varies a bit from codex to codex - some codices specify that a Crusader can always fire the Hurricanes regardless of how far it moved (so it can move 12, fire one main weapon because of Machine Spirit + Hurricanes) others don't say this so it presumably doesn't get it if taken from that codex.

The new Grey Knight book is cute because Psybolts are a 5 pt upgrade on a Crusader, which adds +1 Strength to all its guns. So this makes the Hurricane Bolters strength 5, but they're not defensive weapons then.


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