South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

 
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 Post subject: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:07 pm
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
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Name                    Army           Battle  2/3 Battle  paint sports  Total
Jason Jarvis            Orks/Necrons    53      35.33       35     15    85.33
Shane Hammond           GK/White Scars  40      26.67       35     15    76.67
Aidan Wiltshire         CSM/IG          51      34.00       23     15    72.00
Tim Adams               SW/BA           33      22.00       32     15    69.00
Blaise St Laurent       BA              25      16.67       35     15    66.67
Karn Snyder-Bishop      Eldar           40      26.67       25     15    66.67
Adam Facer              Necrons         43      28.67       22     15    65.67
Chris Wilson            Tyranids        22      14.67       35     15    64.67
Josh Evans              CSM             43      28.67       21     15    64.67
Robert Higgins          Tyranids        33      22.00       27     15    64.00
Blondie                 Iron Hands      36      24.00       28     12    64.00
Mark Wells              IG              26      17.33       28     15    60.33
Nathan Wright           SM              30      20.00       25     15    60.00
JD                      IG              42      28.00       16     15    59.00
Cameron Moore           BA              32      21.33       21     15    57.33
Thom Dunbar             BA              40      26.67       13     15    54.67
Craig                   SW              27      18.00       22     13    53.00
Daryl Jones             GK              25      16.67       20     15    51.67
Nick McBearty           DE              21      14.00       22     15    51.00
Cameron Wright          Black Templars  18      12.00       19     15    46.00
Tom H                   Tau             23      15.33       12     15    42.33
Chris Rix               Armour/IG       22      14.67       10     15    39.67
Fergus Shaw             CSM             4       2.67        0      15    17.67


Sports pts were docked for late lists

Draws were 1st broken w/ Sports scores, and then by painting

Thanks to everyone who made it, tried to make, and wished they'd made it.


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:16 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Christchurch
Thanks for a great weekend

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:56 am 
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Thanks for the amazing weekend. Loads of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:28 pm
Posts: 132
Location: ChCh soon
Thanks to Wes, Comics Compulsion and the wargaming community for a really good tournament. The DE will be back for vengeance, maybe with a better paint job and some sergeant upgrades though! Cursed leadership tests!!


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:24 am
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Location: Hiding under the bed, wishing Kam had pants on
8th??? Bloody hell, I'll take that given the hiding I got last up lol!

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:20 am 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
The lesson to learn, i think, is that when the event format says 50% battle, 35% painting, spending time on your painting can make up for a lot of tactical errors. Chris, Blaise and Shane can all testify to that.


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Location: Hiding under the bed, wishing Kam had pants on
Tactical Errors?? TACTICAL ERRORS???!!!!!! I never make those, it was all the dice's fault! Dumb dice lol!

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:20 pm
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Location: watching more crazy japanese cartoons
Evil Yak wrote:
Tactical Errors?? TACTICAL ERRORS???!!!!!! I never make those, it was all the dice's fault! Dumb dice lol!


Poor workmen always blame their tools.

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:54 pm
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Location: Up in sunny Dorkland, thinking wistfully of the noobs I left behind.
To be fair, Chris's tool has a lot to answer for.


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:33 pm 
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Thanks Wes, it was another smoothly run weekend of playing with dollies.

I'm still shocked at the results though, after my awful run getting only something like 8 points on the first day I never would have believed I'd make it to the podium. I have to apologize to Chris and Blaise though, the horrible beatings I gave them on Sunday not only got me to the podium but at least in Blaise's case I also cost him a podium by the look of it.

Not sure if you've put any thought into next year or not Wes but for whom ever is running it, I really enjoyed this format despite my usual hatred of escalation events.


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
Didn't realise you hated escalation, shane. any reason in particular? It's the sidebars you enjoyed?

Higgins said he enjoyed the scoring system (no wins or losses, just straight pts throughout the whole event) anyone else enjoy/not enjoy that?


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:05 pm
Posts: 137
Location: DGL
I did really enjoy it. The format doesn't make for a competitive tournie in any way and I thought this was just the bee's knees. I got 5 really enjoyable games so that might have skewed my opinion. Thanks to Chris, Jas, Tim, K-dog, and a special mention to Daryl who was a pleasure to play; I have had some terrible games against him before, and he has had a chequered past in regards to sports, but I would welcome the chance to play him in the future.

The only point of note for me was that certain armies (including my Guard, Word Bearers, and Nids) had literally zero chance of a podium. Armies who traditionally have low VP scoring games were doomed and troop heavy ally-combo armies with flyers/pop-n-drop/speed had a field day. Surprise surprise the top spots all fit this mold pretty much. For example, I had 4 wins and a loss (ignoring the kill points mission against K which turned a hard-fought 2-1 win into like a 4-9 drubbing), but was mid table on battle. Nids' greatest weakness is capturing objectives and all the games timed out which compounds the problem. Nids, Tau, orks, sisters, IG, foot anything, and frankly any heavily themed list (which usually tend to be lower on scoring units or rely on attrition against the opponent's scoring units) were in positions where they simply couldn't get any VPs as they all rely on holding one objective and denying all the others with the 3 tie-breakers being the difference. Take home message: this format would be a ball at teams-Warcow but nerd-rage-inducing at Nats unless everyone is warned well in advance and the message is really driven home (unlike 2011 where all the out-of towners turned up prepared for a completely different style of tournie to the one they got).

Side note. I remain firm in my belief that paint by numbers is a terrible, terrible idea. Every time I have seen it implemented, without exception, it has resulted in absurd results. Anyone who saw my eyesore Ksons beat Nathan's Relictors for painting back in the day can attest to an example of this. Again here, deliberate, artistic choices on my Nids saw Chris' nids thrash me; hell they equalled Jason/Shane while being nowhere near the same standard. Meanwhile I think you were generous on my painting scores (I remember looking at the checklist some weeks ago and rating my Nids army at an 8 which would see me at less than half what you gave Daryl). Despite this I felt my Nids were one of the better looking armies at the tournie. Judge/panel painting is sweet but the checklist not so much.

// end Higgins-rant

Thanks again for a lot of fun Wes, Nick and Jo for putting me up (for the thousandth time), and JJ for some sweet catering. See everyone at Nats next year.

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:55 am 
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I agree with Higgins on the scoring sytem in so much that it skews towards some builds. My Godzilla lists usually lose 80% of their body count every game, and typically win by getting one objecitve to none. To be fair, the structure was on the forums for a long time so anyone who was able to do anything to help themselves and didn't can't whinge, but some armies just can't take full advantage, which is a shame as on the surface it's a good idea.

On the painting, as much as I benefitted from the scores, I'll agree with Higgins and say my bugs, while a decent looking army, definitely shouldn't be getting as many points as Blaise and Shane, and maybe as much as jason (who also maxed). I kinda like the checklist, but there needs to be a little bit more at the top for the really good painters possibly.....

On the escalating system of points levels. Please stop, it really really annoys me lol

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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:25 am 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
I agree that an escalation tourney is less "competitive" as it imposes extra restrictions that hurt certain armies. so is the consensus that we'd like a fixed value for next Conquest?

The scoring system was up for ages, but that doesn't mean i don't want feedback. it's interesting to hear that people feel their armies can't table and/or soundly thump other armies hard enough to get a large number of points/mission. it was there to encourage more troops in lists since if you can't cover 3+ objectives on turn 5, you wouldn't score well.

in list related queries, did people take the criteria (missions and scoring) into account when they build their armies or did they just build and play their fav options? if it's the latter, then it doesn't matter how someone writes the mission or scoring criteria since people will play the same lists regardless; at that point, escalation is the only reason lists change at all.

i would have thought that bug lists w/ all their spamable gaunts would be good at holding objectives. is this a playstyle thing, where nid players are pushing their spam-bugs fwd into harms way instead of more "killy" bugs? i would have thought that a screen of bugs (gargs, raveners, trygons, etc) would have been effective at tying up/delaying the enemy from focusing on a spam bug spitting guants in the back corner.

checklist painting is something i do because i'm not a painter. Blaise has suggested "employing" someone more experienced (Shane, your name came up) so that their discerning eye catches what mine doesn't. i think comics would happily give someone a little something for helping out in that respect.

the other reason i went to checklist painting, is so that it's clear why/how people are getting painting points. sure, i could just say "the judge has spoken" but that can lead to hard feelings. several armies scored relatively well (low 20ies) on painting BUT if judged arbitrarily, i would have given very very low scores. the difference there is that i would have had to say "it's just terrible" vs being able to say "yes, you highlighted but you really need to practice and refine that technique"

the inevitable "old timer" critique from players who aren't involved anymore is that the painting standard has gone downhill. i think this is mostly a case of "the grass was greener in my day" but also that people involved in the game now are here to play more than paint; it's a game, more than a hobby. JD said it best (and i'm paraphrasing here) "painting is a tax i have to pay to play", so with a checklist i can direct people's time/effort so they can maximize the appearance of their armies w/out "discouraging" people who don't the time/motivation/interest/talent to paint "well"


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 Post subject: Re: 40k Results 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:30 am 
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Location: South of the Border, West of the Sun
and from Blaise, who's on a plane and can't post:

"Wow just read Higgins rant on the nzwargamer. I don't agree with his assessment at all. First off his statement about nids not being able to hold objectives is horseshit.

And though I'm a little surprised that Chris' nids beat his nids in painting I think overall the checklist system works better than judge system. That being said I think part of his rant is interesting as it relates to artistic choices. We are treating painting as a craft, eg apply enough time and effort and you can max your score. I know this is deliberate but without a players favorite army vote you lose out on the visual effect aspect.

By all means use the painting score in the total rankings but I think player votes are more important when giving out best painted with the checklist used to break ties.

Also (and this is no disrespect to you Wes) getting a well established painter to do the judging would probably go down well. For example get Shane to do the judging for you. He'd be more likely to spot advanced techniques when it comes to the Actual technical painting and pick up on relative difficultly of some of the things attempted."

Hopefully Blaise will take it well that i've just appropriated his response. See, i want these discussions (and ones about Helldrakes being ruined) out here where we can all see them. it's just so much better for us as a "community" to get what we want out of all the local events. i could give a damn about Rankings and "Competitive" tourneys, so long as that's what the locals want.

People who just want to beat face w/out worrying about painting seem to have migrated to a different game, which means that they're happy. if you're still and playing 40k, then i'm assuming painting scores, and a relaxed attitude to winning/losing while having a few beers with friends is why you're coming to Conquest.

If not, i want to hear from you about what you need/want.


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