South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

 
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 Post subject: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 439
Several of the guys who play ADLG keep referring to dice when describing the lack of success of their armies under ADLG;
It relies too much on the dice.
The dice have too much effect on the game.
How can I win when my army just throws ****.
He threw masses of 6s.

So I am trying a few games without using dice at all. Instead I will use cards to give exactly the same random factor for each throw, but a totally even score over all the throws.

I have 2 packs of cards which have had 7 to 10 and the picture cards removed. The ace counts as 1, the other cards their face value. One player uses the red cards, the other the black cards.
One pack will be used for Cammand points the other for combats.

The packs are shuffled and placed face down beside the player. Each time a command is activated the player turns over the top card and uses that value instead of a dice. After 4 gameturns each player will have used his 12 cards, each will have had 2 sixes, 2 fives etc and therefore will have had the same amount of randomness. The cards are then shuffled again and placed face down.

Each player turns over the top card for each combat. After 12 combats each player will have used all 12 cards, each will have had 2 sixes, 2 fives etc and therefore will have had the same amount of good throws, and the same amount of bad. The cards are then shuffled again and placed face down.

I am looking forward to seeing if this significantly alters the game, and reduces the claims of "my luck was crap".


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:01 pm
Posts: 254
Location: Christchurch
The game has optional rules for average dice though I've heard it slows things down and I guess you can't get lucky light infantry hits and it would mess with elites and mediocre a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Using average dice distorts the game in favour of elite and armoured troops. A disordered heavy swordsman has a 1 in 12 chance of scoring a hit on an elite knight in good order. Using average dice that drops to a 1 in 36.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
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Location: Belfast, Christchurch
awesum4 wrote:
Using average dice distorts the game in favour of elite and armoured troops.

Maybe a good move as the cost of Elite & Armour seems a little expensive for the effect that it gives.

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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 439
Brent and I tried this out on Thursday night using Andalusians against Palmyrans. I've been working out what to write as it brought up some issues which may appear as criticisms of Brent's attitude to the game.

I thought before the game that we would probably end up with a mutual destruction, or at least a very tight game. In the end it was a major victory to the Palmyrans.
My right wing auxillia and bow command destroyed an isolated spear and light foot command with the help of a single camel who raced around their flank.
My legions absorbed his impact heavy cavalry until a detached bowman could start attack into their flank.
The remaining legions held some knights with the help of a camel. His remaining knights failed against cataphracts who outflanked his line and would have rolled him up. My last cataphract combined with light horse to kill his outflanking light horse.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:28 am 
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Now to what happened with the cards;

Brent wasn't that enthusiastic about using them and it showed. We both had 4 small sets of cards, command cards and combat cards face down and discards for both face up. He continually picked up the wrong cards or discarded onto the wrong pile, which changed the outcome of the experiment which was that at the end of the battle we would both have had the exact same luck.
Also as soon as he had drawn both 6s in a pack he wanted to reshuffle the deck "I can't win with the crap cards that are left.

He also decided fairly early in that he won't use cards again.

My conclusions from the game;
dice are very easy to use, cards are an extra complication. In future I would just use one pack for each player. That means luck would even out over the whole game rather than over the command and the combats desperately.
Being able to blame a run of bad dice for your loss or good dice for a win is also easy, you don't need to examine your choice of army, your composition of that army, or your tactics.

I want to thank Brent for having the courage to give it a go. I don't think cards will replace dice but I would like to have a few more games using them.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:28 am 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
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Location: Belfast, Christchurch
Well done Andre & Brent for being bold enough to give cards a work-out.
Personally I don't think it is the answer as only 2 sixes available ( well 2 of everything ) when a six is available every die roll of the dice. I can see Brent's point, sitting awaiting the 'one' to turn up as he has no sixes left.

I am keen to try the 'Dice Cup Phasing Player' system that we talked about yesterday.
Dice with twist.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Posts: 3
For what it's worth,

I think the dice extremes are an essential mechanism to storm the game bogging down,
and allowing it to finish in an acceptable time frame.

It also means that if your army is outmatched, for example by elephants, some good die will keep you in the contest.

Good luck and bad luck have always been an essential feature of the battlefield.

I ply quite a bit of To The Strongest which uses cards instead of dice, and we always still complaining about luck.

Cheers
Bryan fowler


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:17 pm
Posts: 467
1) Actually I enjoy the rules.
2) The only time I'm not tweaking and changing my army is at a convention.
3) I made 2 major mistakes in our game. My deployment which resulted in the cavalry facing the legions, which meant we were evens on impact and I was a factor down in melee. The other was not breaking off which allowed you to get on my flank and turn. Once I failed to break through with the mounted it was just a matter of time before you flanked me and rolled up my army.
4) No I didn't like the cards. I will admit my ability to mix up the pip cards and the combat cards stuffed things up for your experiment. Next time use red cards for one and black cards for the other.
5) Using a die, each time you throw it means that there is a totally random chance as to what number you will get, so over a series of rolls you may get a run of 1s or 6s or a random mixture. Using the cards means the first number is as random as the dice. After that the probability changes as cards are used. So if you've used your high cards early then you are stuck with the inevitability of a low number, not the random chance from a die.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
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Location: Belfast, Christchurch
Brent, want to try the DCPP system on Sunday?


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:17 pm
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Quote:
Brent, want to try the DCPP system on Sunday?


Ok


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Nelson
I'm left wondering at the validity of having a limited number of rerolls available for each game.

5 rerolls available during a game for each side, that could influence any dice roll (yours or your opponents) but could only be used once per roll, would be an interesting twist.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Impetvs has (had?) that system. They called it “rolls of destiny” IIRC. You had to purchase them for 5 pts each out of 400-500pts. They were put in as a way to calm people about D6 variance.

In my experience, they had a way of cancelling out to nothing since if you let one player reroll a die, the other play had to be allowed to as well given some rolls were pretty important.... Basically there became a whole rules section on the issue. The end result was you were saved that reroll then brutalised by a small cube again not long after :D

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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
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Location: Belfast, Christchurch
Big Battle DBA has a rule that the CnC's unit can add +1 to its Combat score after this has been calculated, Once in a game.
ie after everything has been added subtracted etc you get the choice to add +1.

This could be rounded out to each Competent or higher General, adding +1 to the unit it is with Once in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: ADLG.....no dice needed
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Location: Belfast, Christchurch
Brent wrote:
Quote:
Brent, want to try the DCPP system on Sunday?


Ok


Good, I'll bring all the DCPP gear.


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