South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

 
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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Wellington
Brent wrote:
6 weeks to go. We need to get players registered as soon as possible so we can arrange tables and space for us.


How many Christchurch players are registered for one of their regular events?

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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Nelson
Registered


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 463
I'm not registered yet but am definitely going


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 51
Any chance we can use averaged dice? (2,3,3,4,4,5) and 1 damage per hit (instead of half rounding down, which messes up things a lot).
I had a game with Josh the other day and the non possibility of a 6:1 was a great game changer. 5:2 is bad enough. With the one damage per hit the fights last about as long but no more row of 1s that ruin a game you plaid for 2 hours in 5 minutes.
I liked it MUCH better to the point that I dont want to play the roulette like normal dice any more.

Toroeeh!

averaged T.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Wellington
No thanks.
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 463
Tilman,
I looked at average dice briefly but it made mediocre troops totally unusable and elite troops too powerful in some matchups. Having 1 hit per point possibly negates that a bit, but there are still matchups where a mediocre cannot score a single hit on an elite (with normal dice they have a very slim chance).
What armies were you using? Did you have mediocre and elite troops in either or both?

I have no problem trying average dice but we would need a few games with different armies before using it in a tournament. Conquest is too close, so that's a no from me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:48 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:15 pm
Posts: 281
That's a def no from me.

But since we are talking about it, how does a light foot shooter score a hit on a Armoured heavy foot. Protection two plus a min dice of 2 equals 4 against -1 shooter plus a 5 equals 4. No hit. I understand wanting to eliminate large luck variations but eliminating a long shot possibility entirely seems rather dramatic.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 463
A light horse charging the flank of an elite knight cannot hit even on a 1 in 36 chance. Using normal dice it's a 1 in 12 chance.
Average dice alters the effectiveness of different troop types.
Without trying lots of different armies against lots of opponents I wouldn't advocate using it in a standard tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 51
???

in which way do you think average dice change the performance of elite and mediocre troops????

Elite/Mediocre go up/down one if below/above half. Average dice make zero change to that.

With normal dice everyboady can kill everybody which is superhuman.
Averaged dice make that much harder.

A LH on a flank is at least a + 1 for the flank charge
A kn hit in flank is a 0
If the LH is lucky it can kill the kn with averaged dice or without
If the Kn is lucky, he can kill the LH with averaged dice or without.

The averaged dice just take out the absolute randenomness of the results.
We have +1 or a maximum of +3 on Factors.
This is very much overpowered by the dice which give you from -5 to +5 factors which is just insane given how hard it is to get to +3 on factors.
Whith averaged dice this is ameliorated to -3/+3 which is still strong, but not obscene stronter than the factors you earn by your play.
I think investing hours in a game should give you a chance to win without lady luck having far more to say than your and your opponents gameplay.

The critical thing is to make each diference a hit.
This at the same time also takes out other anomalities like 2HW only counting in on 50 % of the damage (which can be never for a given unit, now, which makes buying 2HW another trial on Lady luck).

T.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 463
Elites are harder to kill using average dice because the worst they can throw is 2 which becomes a 3 rather than 1 which becomes a 2.
Mediocre kill less often because they can no longer throw a 6 which becomes a 5, now they can only throw a 5 which becomes a 4.
Therefore elites are improved and mediocre are made worse.

When a light horse charges a knight in the flank the knight retains his base factor of 2, is lowest throw is 2, and 1 for elite and 1 for armour, so a total of 6. The light horse have a base factor of 0, 1 for attacking the flank, highest throw is 5 for a total of 6. The light horse cannot inflict a casualty.

Please don't suggest we change a set of rules that works unless you understand the changes suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:17 pm
Posts: 488
Sorry Tillman but we will be using normal dice and the only changes to the rules will be the ones in the latest FAQ and amendments.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 51
Not a problem if you want to stick to the slot machine. ;-)

I just decided I wont travel for days and play for hours to throw a row of 1 and 2 (happens every 2-3 games) and the opponent throws 4 and more and thats it for the battle (as with 3 out of 4 of my games at Garagecon, 2 out of 4 in the competition before and the majority of my test games for both). If the dice have way more power than the factors you can achieve by play I find it too frustrating.
In my last game with Josh I had not a single event, that threatened my happiness (even so I lost). With averaged dice there are close to no freak results. You still have Lady luck have a big say in any given melee, but its way more improbable that this can happen along a whole battleline.

I do not understand the argument re elite/mediocre.
I do not see a difference in outcomes, the outcome is identical both in each result pair and in the sum over results.
I do not claim to be mathematically gifted, but I think I can count. Maybe I am just plain stupid but I would like to see something like a mathematical equation that shows how the elite get better with average dice because I do not see it.
average dice
ord med elite
2 2 3
3 3 4
3 3 4
4 3 4
4 3 4
5 4 5
21 18 24 sum
D6
ord med elite
1 1 2
2 2 3
3 3 4
4 3 4
5 4 5
6 5 6
21 18 24 sum

Yes, you can not achieve the freak 5 difference (with ordinary against ordinary or mediocre, +4 against Elite) any more, that is a good thing in my book.
True too, the maximum that mediocre throw up against elite shrinks from +3 with D 6 to +1 with average dice. And that happens 1/36 of times, . Again, that is a good thing in my book too, as the elite player paid 4 more for cv or inf so there should be a payback.
The maximum that Elite throw up against all with D6 is +5. That shrinks to +3 with average dice too.

Average dice are not a rules change, its an official option.

What might happen with this option is that the game slows down as with average dice and 1/2 wound per hit you will not get the high damage roles on the (many) freak results any ore.
Thats why Josh and me tried replacing that (which I always found dissatisfactory as it randomizes the effect of 2HW, Armor etc.) with 1 Wound per difference in results.
I found the result worked fine.
Even so I have to admit that this might actually make better troops (elite, impact etc.) more valuable as small advantages now have larger outcomes.
But again, I like the effect.
With the game at present you have practically no chance in a competition if you turn up with a small elite force, large forces dominate the battles in my perspective.

re the lh charges the flank of a kn example. If a unit in a given situation needs a freak result to succeed, the whole attack might not be such a good idea. But the example picked (out of a multitude of situations) suffers from the combination of a flank attack being a miserable +1 (it should be a +2 given how hard it is to achieve and how devastating its effects where in reality) and the fact that lights do not push the factors down to 0 (I forgot that in fact, sorry). If we gave flank attacks the +2 they deserve it would be harder to shrug them off, as happens often in ADG which again would be a good thing.

But I totally agree that a competition might be the wrong moment to try optional rules effects.

Have fun! ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 463
Tilman,

I'm happy to try new things, including average dice and 1 casualty per hit, but not at Conquest in a few weeks time.

Local changes like you are suggesting are for trying with friends and a local tournament with reasonable notice. But for the Nationals and going to international tournaments such as Britcon or the Cancon you need to regularly play with the standard rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:23 pm
Posts: 41
Tillman, I am happy to keep testing the average dice and should be into a normal pattern of work soon.
Looking forward to seeing you all next month
J


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 Post subject: Re: Conquest 2018
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:21 am 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
Posts: 1389
Location: Belfast, Christchurch
Tilman I am a great believer in the Competition Organiser supplying the Dice to all the Competitors so that all are using Dice from the same set.
This helps give a 'level playing field' as regards to Dice.

I have invested in a very good set of Competition Dice, 80 dice in 7 colours with digits (not dots ), which are only used in competitions that I run.

There are Players who do not like this system, I had a prominent local threaten to walk out of a competition that I was running as he wanted to use his own dice. As he was supplying the laptop with the draw and scoring system I had to comply with his wishes in this regard. I have had others say the same, they prefer to use their own dice. I have stopped organising and running competitions now because of this. Just goes to show that there must be dodgy dice out there.

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