South Island Wargaming, New Zealand.

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 Post subject: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use average D
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 58
I came up with a somewhat pleasing kinda mathematical deduction what the problem with averaged dice and grading is.
If your weapons do not give you more than 1 on average (more often 0 than 2) and not more than 1 or 2 for tactical factors (impact/impetuous, uphill. flanks) and you have a minimum of 2 for dicing and make that 3 for elite, that is not so good when the damage you inflict is the difference as it does not up the tactical side compared to the dicing which is what I would like to see. The good solution would be to double all weapons factors and twist the tactical factors around. That for me is beyond the scope of an optional rule.
So what would be needed are dices that do not go higher in minimum factors but rather lower keeping a variation in results that keeps the combat outcome interesting for both sides.
Something like a D3 or D 4, one damage for every difference in result and elite adding one if they win by one or loose by 2 or more. Mediocre the other way around. Like this everybody can still beat everyone else on the dice without giving ridiculous results.

I always thought that dice should alter the outcome of an engagement, because chance did alter historical outcomes. But if dice lead for a win by weapons and tactical factors converted in a rout of the better troop, that is over the top for me, as I see no such results in history. If we split for the convenience of the argument combat outcomes in 5 like outright loss / loosing draw / plain draw / winning draw / outright win, than dice should change this outcome by weapons and tactical situation by 1 or rarely 2 stages, but not more like converting an outright win into an outright loss. Because there is a difference between getting lucky/unlucky and divine intervention.....in real live.... and thus I would like to see on the tabletop.

happy to read any thoughts about this

Cheerioh from sunny Nelson

T.


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:17 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 241
Location: Nelson
I will put my toe in...
In all the rulesets and in all genre's where dice are involved; the extremes happen.
We remember the extremes over the multitude of games where dice played little part.
I can still remember a game against Brian Sowman.
My two units of Thorakitai failed their rolls and charged through their shielding skirmishers routing them.
They charged up a hill into waiting Brians's longbowmen rolling a series of 5-6's they smashed the astonished Longbowmen who turned tail and ran bursting through their friendly rear support behind on the reverse slope, who then in turn got routed by the Thorakitai running down the hill. This opened up the entire flank of Brians army that was behind fortifications.
Shaun will fondly (haha) remember Mark charging Roman Legionaries up a steep hill into Shaun's Auxillia and wiping them out to topple him from pole position in the competition.

Its episodes of extremely good or bad luck that make these games memorable and epic and in all honesty there has been far less of these incidences in ADLG than in FOG which was a game renown for outcomes being reasonably foreseeable.

Its never nice being on the wrong side but take solace that you are making your opponents day and giving them something to brag for years to come.

Don't attempt to take this away by turning it into a game of chess.

I propose we change the thread to one of bragging or commiserating ones epic or disastrous ancients events if you don't mind Tilman :)


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 58
Ah, epic stories,
Like me yesterday charging my line of elephants and impetuous swordsmen into Aarons superior Janissary without taking a single hit on the close combat units on the approach and then charging with overlaps in their favor(my line of 6 fighting Aaron line of 4, both my flanks had Elephants, I managed the ideal aproach by skillfully using my only 3 wide skirmisher screen against Aarons 4 Janisaries plus 3 skirmishers) managing +4 (with general) and +3 against Aarons flank janisaries miserable Factor of +1 each. One of my swordsmen in the center of the line hit one of Aarons Janisaries who was shot disrupted by my skirmishers shooting (...) so my swordsmen where on the up with a furious charge in all of these 3 units.... Now that looks pretty damaging, does it? I was filled with confidence.
I forgot about ADG dicerolling....
As the story goes (and in my memory this ALLWAYS happens) not one, but all 3 of my units that should have blasted Aarons Janisaries got stopped in their tracks, only the Elephant with a General on top of it managing a draw, both my other units getting killed in the next melee phases.
DESASTER for the Malasyans!
...
Now, wait, Aaron had 4 Janisaries, right? The forth had an impetous swordsman against him, but being elite and having bow support put him in a rather comfortable position to fend my attack off.
Now, as it ALLWAYS happens in my game experience with ADG, being up on factors means you loose, being down on factors means you win...., the one unit in my line on lower chances to survive that would have been happy to just guard the flanks of his friends rolled 4 factors up against Aarons, throw in furious charge and the one Janisary unit which looked happily forward to the combat exploded. Epic? plain stupid if you ask me. What could have been an epic moment of the elite Janissary holding up my line turned into them wining 2 out of 4 melees and holding up my general only to get roled up by my lone survivor and his surviving (already shot up) flanking swordsmen (and my Elephant General eliminating his enemy Janissary in Melee turn 3 after he lost his impact and furious charge).
What is the justification of this ****?
There is none. Its wrong. A charge of mounted and impetuous swordsmen either smashes through, or it does not. There is simply no historical incident I can imagine or remember where milling around after the initial contact did those storm-troops any good.
In ADG it happens all the time in my personal experience. Emphasized in my memory by the fact how utterly stupid this is.

What I think of is miles from playing chess (I am not good at chess). I am talking about not turning the factors upside down in melee about 30-40 % of the time.
Nothing is wrong by the OCCASIONAL epic blunder or success by sheer luck.
In ADG by the way the Factors are low and the dice is high, it happens in statistically over 30 % of the melees. This I feel is absurd and makes for a very, very dis-satisfactory game experience, in any case none that I would spend half a week traveling for.
Even if I occasionally win by this as yesterday.

;-)


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:36 am
Posts: 477
I am not convinced that the rules are broken, and that the random factor needs to be changed. I'm happy to try something different in a friendly game or two sometime. But not in the near future.

Unlike Tilman who won't travel to play ADLG I (and 5 others) are travelling to Cancon to participate fully. Come good dice, bad dice, or the usual random throws, I intend to have a bloody good time and some great battles.

Andre


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:57 pm
Posts: 1414
Location: Belfast, Christchurch
The Dice at CanCon's ADLG competition are supplied by the Organiser, as Andre infromed us at last Sunday's CWC meeting.
I am a fervent supporter of supplied dice for competitions, means everyone is on an equal 'dice' footing.
I also agree with Andre's remarks re the rules & random factors Tilman


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 241
Location: Nelson
I agree Andre, win or lose I intend to enjoy the experience at Cancon.


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 Post subject: Re: on dice in adg and variations to the choice to use avera
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 am 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 58
win or loose...
well, that worked out for the man! ;-)


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